Are we already being censored?

Archives of Posts to the NZ MX5 List back in 2006
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EricW
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Whangaparaoa

Are we already being censored?

Post by EricW » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:43 pm

Look, this is not something that I wish to really buy into, but since the
subject has been raised by Glenn,

I sent the following message to the list on Thursday evening, nearly 48
hours ago. It is contentious, however it contains nothing that filters
should block.

Thus far it has not appeared on the list. The other listings on the subject
have been posted under another subject heading, is the original heading
blocked?

Or is it simply that discussion on this arbitary set of rules is not
permitted?

If so, how democratic is that?

Eric

zorruno
Black is the new black.
Black is the new black.
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:20 pm
Location: An Eastern Beach

Are we already being censored?

Post by zorruno » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:33 am

Eric & Ann West said on 04/08/2006 02:43 PM:
Look, this is not something that I wish to really buy into, but
since the
subject has been raised by Glenn,

I sent the following message to the list on Thursday evening, nearly 48
hours ago. It is contentious, however it contains nothing that filters
should block.
Oh for $#@& sake Eric, not you too.

Thus far it has not appeared on the list. The other listings on the
subject
have been posted under another subject heading, is the original heading
blocked?
No. Your message(s) were blocked because they contained the words 'out
of of*ice'. A filter put in place about 4 years ago when someone's
automatic 'out of of*ice' reply message sent whole a bunch of emails to
the list and generally annoyed people. Yes, I know I typed those words
into my original email (which was pretty stupid of me really) but hey
that is the crap list system I started 7 years ago knowing little about
Linux/Majordomo/websites at the time. Remember - I have kept asking for
help to set the whole thing up better?

48 hours???!!! You're kidding right? It was 48 hours because I went to
work all yesterday (yes, I have a full time job), went to a family
member's place last night, and was busy most of today looking after my
young son. Then I went to the movies with my wife, then dinner & have
just got home. Do you honestly think I sit by my computer 24 hours per
day waiting to read everybody's posts and decide which ones are good enough?

You should know better than many that all you have to do is flick me a
reminder (or even a phone call) if you email has not come through and
you really think it is important. You've done this a few times before
when your messages didn't make it because of the crap list filters. I'm
happy to unblock it as soon as I can, as I have done for you previously
and many other list members. Eric, you have had some great
contributions to the list in the past that are always pretty relevant
(and from memory you obey all the list guidelines) - why would I not
want to approve them?

Or is it simply that discussion on this arbitary set of rules is not
permitted?as
If so, how democratic is that?
I thought it was - seeing as list members got to vote for what they
wanted. Obviously not, but then politics has never been my strong point.

The alternative that has been suggested by the NZ Club committee in the
past is just block anyone who isn't a current NZ or Christchurch club
member (and doesn't stick to the list guidelines), and have a committee
vote where people are members. The other option was also to make it a
NZ Club members list only, but I've always voted against this.

I have a NZ Club committee meeting on tues so I'll ask them to come up
with a new set of rules and someone else to admin the list. I've done
it for long enough, and maybe they can just put the fees up and pay
someone to do it. I'm going to reclaim my life. Anyone up for a drive
tomorrow? :)

cheers
zorruno

PS - oh, and if someone else responds to my previous email, please
delete the words 'out of of*ice' from the text as I have below. That
way someone won't have to approve those posts.
(z)

EricW
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Whangaparaoa

Are we already being censored?

Post by EricW » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:20 am

I have received an "Off List reply from zorruno regarding this matter.

I am more than satisfied with what he told me.

As the reply was "off List" and discussed other matters, I do not feel able
to post his reply, however there was, in fact in the body of zorrunos
original post, a phrase which the filters detect.

I unreservedly apologise to zorruno for any offense caused.

Regards

Eric

Okibi
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:03 am

Are we already being censored?

Post by Okibi » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:06 pm

Wow talk about blowing things out of context.

It seems all they're trying to do is restrict spam mail to list users and
make sure everyone knows to respect each other.

I recommend keeping the list open to the general public as it's a good way
to introduce people to the club, let them find out about club runs and so
you wet their appetite and they join the club.

If people are volunteering their time than you have to show some flexibility
and make sure they're shown appreciation. If the task isn't fun then why
should they dedicate their time towards it. I recommend everyone ease up as
there hasn't really been any major dramas on this list.

Finally I'd like to thank the list admin for doing a good job, keep it up.

My 2 cents

- Dave
If you had access to a car like this, would you take it back right away? Neither would I.

Michael & Kate Cooper

Are we already being censored?

Post by Michael & Kate Cooper » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 pm

Hello

May as well put my 2 cents in since I've been on the list for a while.

I have had a couple of e-mails to the list that have not shown - I assumed
it was because they were off topic and nothing to do with MX5s - which I
thought was perfectly fair.

I do not enjoy reading derogatory comments made by Bill towards other list
members, especially when they have done nothing to justify such abuse. I am
annoyed when such abuse results in people unsubscribing, meaning that we all
miss out on the useful input we have had from those members, and also the
additional personalities that are lost. I enjoy reading the funnies on the
list, as well as the tips and information.

I hate to think that our personal e-mail addresses, sent with our posts, can
and are used for Bill (and possibly others, that I don't know about) to send
abusive e-mails directly to other list members, and I hope that this letter
doesn't invite those such e-mails, although I wouldn't be at all surprised
if it does. :-)

I don't like to hear people abusing each other, and neither do I like to
read it whilst sitting in my office at home. As far as I can see there is
only one list member who doesn't have the self control to post his opinions
in a civilised tone of voice, and I personally think that the list would be
a better place without that sort of person on it. Maybe those that he has
driven away will come back and grace us with their presence again.

Thank you zorruno for speaking up, sorry it was not so well-received. You
did what you could, now go and enjoy your car and your family!

[...]

joanie
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Paekakariki

Are we already being censored?

Post by joanie » Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:33 pm

I agree with you Kate. At first I did get a little amusement from reading
Bill's OTT mails but they soon wore thin.
I also would like to say a huge thank you to zorruno for the fantastic job he
has done on the list and his attempt to try and and make it a better place
(a Bill-less place ? :-)
I can understand why you feel its time to step down and have a life...go for
it!
Cheers Joan H

poison
Keep calm, Forum Moderator here.
Keep calm, Forum Moderator here.
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:47 pm
Location: JAFA Land

Are we already being censored?

Post by poison » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:09 pm

I also would like to give a big up's to zorruno, he puts a lot of time, heart
and soul into this forum and many other parts of the list. Spam & email
filtering is an incredibly complex set-up and is prone to fail at times,
zorruno can't be expected to find every little thing. Sorry Glen but I never
thought of you as the paranoid type, if your email didn't make it through it
was by accident, if you were blocked your second email would not have made
it through either.

Almost all forums have contentious moments and that keeps them interesting,
but they also have moderators who block users and can delete postings
totally at their own whims. At least in the system zorruno has "proposed"
will be vetted by a committee, hence a democracy just like the government.
We vote them in to make the decisions.

After all I will probably get blocked due to my ever pertinent comments
regarding BRG cars, in my defence it's not my fault it's such an ugly
colour... :-)

Gazza
"PO1SON"
:twisted: Gazda in the white HOT Mazda :twisted:

biff
I have stars and not afraid to use them
I have stars and not afraid to use them
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 3:17 pm
Location: Christchurch

Are we already being censored?

Post by biff » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:11 pm

Hi Eric, I received your post "Treasure Island", so I don't think it was
blocked.

This is an un-moderated list, so we are free, basically to fire off
whatever we like, I simply think the attempts here are to moderate "from
a distance".
I think we all agree there have been times when personal attacks have
taken place, those types of correspondence are not for this list, and
one of the things we fail to take into account is that if the usual
80-20 rule is applied then there are a lot more readers than writers,
and they may not approve of the slinging that goes on.

This isn't a "Public" forum, it's a "Subscribed" forum, and those people
who subscribe expect to receive MX5 related content. I think that's fair
and reasonable, but people being people at times a bun fight can take
place, so to sending the offenders to cool off is fair.

I am not going to enter the debate of how the decisions are made, if it
was a case of a warning shot if the content was reaching an unacceptable
level, then if it continued you were sent to the sin bin for 2 weeks I
wouldn't have a problem with that, in a subscribed forum we all have
group responsibilities and expectations to meet.

Unfortunately I have witnessed first hand the demise of mail lists
because a few with an axe to grind were permitted to highjack it, the
400 odd other members just left over time, it would be a pity to allow
the same thing to happen here.
Personal shots can always take place off list, but those taking the
shots perhaps wouldn't feel the same sense of achievement if it weren't
in the public arena?

So if the list rules are laid out, and we all play ball there isn't any
issue, if you don't like the rules then don't play the game.
(The judges decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into
:)

I'm happy to be sent to the sin bin, after all its only fair play.

Just my 2c worth.

Can we get back to MX5 topics now, please?

Biff
ZOOM1N
Red MX NA
ZOOM1N

David Moughtin

Are we already being censored?

Post by David Moughtin » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 pm

I have no frineds and so rely on this list substitute for a social life.
I guess that when viewed by others, we all have parts of our life that
would be considered noyhing short of very sad. For instance, I hate
throwing things away, including emails because they may someday be
useful sources of information when fixing my car. As well as being
useful, they can also provide a source of amusement on those long
Winter nights or social times in the office. I am regularly asked for
updates to the soap opera. In the last 12 months there has been over
200 installments:
i) Driving at 170km/h and drinking milk late at night
ii) Gazza and Ken against the US of A
ii) Petitioning the Minister for Transport as a means of
voicing opinion

I appreciate that I have the luxury of a broadband connection but still,
thanks to the foresight of the nice people at Microsoft, I can organise
Outlook to automatically send messages received from any address
directly to the rubbish bin, to be automatically emptied when Outlook
closes. The effect of someone trying to bombard me with threatening
emails is then much reduced. Similarly, I have to accept that in some
colonial cultures, the first response to a perceived insult is to head
off to your lawyer and sue (or call Judge Judy). I am not sure that
these threats carry the same weight in New Zealand - at least not at the
bottom of the bucket of sand that I bury myself in.

So, I say, let's not ban Bill, filter him away, and anyway, it would
only be the setting a precedent, and who would be next?
Maybe those with a continued obsession with cars of a certain colour? Or
what about those that have given their car a name? Or those who insist
on driving around listening to Abba or John Denver?

Thanks zorruno for your work in running this list.

David Moughton

Keith Smith
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 6:05 am
Location: Auckland

Are we already being censored?

Post by Keith Smith » Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:51 pm

I'm with you on that one Kate
Keith
On 09/04/2006, at 12:13 PM, Michael & Kate Cooper wrote:

[...]
nihil illigitimatae carborundum

Simon Lord
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Albany

Are we already being censored?

Post by Simon Lord » Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:00 pm

You are absolutely right in everything that you say, Kate.

I was away for three days last week enjoying driving the car that is the
raison d'etre for this list. On my return I was very depressed to read all
the hassle that had been going on while I was away. I don't like seeing this
sort of antagonism happening either and I don't invite it into my life.

On the other hand, I came back needing some information from other list
members, asked for it and received it within hours. Isn't that great? Isn't
that what the list is for?

Of course we are all different people with our own points of view. I love
seeing the jokes and the wind-ups going on, I enjoy the way threads meander
off-topic to share other enthusiasms and I heartily thank zorruno for all the
effort he puts into it. Having worked on a voluntary board for 12 years now
(and spent two years as its chairman) I know how much work and how few
thanks are involved in any such endeavour.

So thank you to everyone who enriches this list by participating. If, in
order to proect that participation and the spirit of the list, zorruno needs
to enforce new rules, so be it. Unfortunately, in doing so, some of the
freedom we all enjoy is lost. Well, isn't that always the way - freedom is
always unltimately restricted by those who abuse it.

Sigh.

Simon Lord
97 SR Ltd (sparkle green)
Email: simon@franchise.co.nz

EricW
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Whangaparaoa

Are we already being censored?

Post by EricW » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:37 pm

I was going to reply directly to zorruno on this, but since the time that I
received his email I have been busy and there has been a bit of traffic on
the subject, so I may as well share my thoughts with the list.

I do not think there is anyone on the list who does not think that zorruno
does a brilliant and unobtrusive job of administering it, however, the idea
of "secretly" banning someone from the list is anathema to me.

I have, personally, been the recipient of some emails I would rather not
have had and, in principle, I have no problem with excluding from the list,
those who abuse others.That behaviour is unecessary and unacceptable.

What I am concerned about is the process.

If there is a concensus that someone should be excluded, then let those who
hold that opinion have the courage of their convictions and say so publicly.
Give the person a chance to defend themselves and then, if necessary, tell
them they are excluded. Do not hide behind the shield of a secret vote and
secret process.

The problem with secret processes is that they are open to abuse, history is
littered with gruesome examples.

Secretly controlling what people are allowed think and say is contrary to
everything our way of life stands for.

The other side of this is, of course, that people should conform to socially
accepted standards unless there is a strong reason not to. Departure from
the social norm should never be simply gratuitous and we are entitled to
reject people who behave in this way.

But let us all have the guts to stand up and say so. If we lack that
intestinal fortitude, we deserve everything we get.

regards

Eric

KSCRIM
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 8:46 pm
Location: West Auckland

Are we already being censored?

Post by KSCRIM » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:13 pm

I must also agree with Kate, zorruno does a great job and we would all be the
poorer if he were not doing it.
Unfortunatly there are some who have a "knack" of pressing buttons and
others have a "knack" of reacting to said button pressing. The world would
be a very sad and boring place if all was peace and everyone agreed with
everyone else. Varity in all things is essential, otherwise we would never
progress.
Tolerance toward others (and their opinions) is a virtue which must be
defended, as we are all different in so many ways.
As I often say, "all MX5's are the same,,, but they are all different", due
to their owners inputs and preferences. Whether it is colour, wheels, tyres,
or other accessories, "variety is the spice of life".

Once again, Thanks to zorruno, and to the rest of the comittee for their
work.

My $0.02 worth

Kevin


[...]
Kevin 2010 NC PRHT. (98 NB6C sold)

animalmagic
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Need, more, 5-ing, time....
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:55 am
Location: UK

Are we already being censored?

Post by animalmagic » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:16 am

The other option was also to make it a
NZ Club members list only, but I've always voted against this.
That would a shame - I'm sad enough to follow this list from the
other side of the world and would miss it... :-)

--
Regards Terry

Great public speakers listen to the audience with their eyes.


--
Regards
-Terry

Bill Rehm

Are we already being censored?

Post by Bill Rehm » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:32 am

Well Michael, with all due respect your "2 cents", given its uninformed,
subjective analysis, I might be forgiven for thinking, isn't worth "a
penny" namely because:

1. You have never met me
2. You base your uniformed conclusions on my willingness to be
totally transparent and forthright as opposed to some others on the list
who have been anything but ... and I might add, to the extent I could
initiate litigation against a few of them for defamation
3. You clearly demonstrate your bias or perhaps your rather limited
ability to think laterally, through accusing me of using others email
address as part of some Gestapo initiative, when in fact I have the
courtesy to not subject the list to "toxic" matters between me and a
specific list member that should be forwarded directly to only that
specific list member.

Care to acquire some "enlightenment" Michael? Take up my offer as Eric
did to meet face to face so you might make a more 'informed assessment'
of who you offer your biased opinions about . or of course remain, what
I might be forgiven for thinking, is what you appear to be . and expect
in return in written form what you have personally earned .

"To place your ideas and dreams before the crowd is to risk their rejection"
I might be forgiven for thinking Michael, I've taken more "self-assured
risks" in my life in a 1 year period, than you have in a decade of yours
.

Bill

PS: It is reassuring to learn others have had their messages "blocked"
as mine, including some which DID NOT contain anything more than a
strongly worded (no profanity) point of view. Perhaps it has been
nothing more than an "intermittent "technically or perhaps in reality
views which have been what I might label "atypical" to the subjective
discretion of others.

carl.halvorsen

Are we already being censored?

Post by carl.halvorsen » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:08 am

Well said Kate. I totally agree with you.
I had a one liner from Bill a year or so ago and have been on the verge
of unsubscribing since. Recent comments have pushed me further to that point.
How he can be in the HR business gods knows! Remember his sign off on
his earlier emails - "Making work places a great place to work" Makes
you think doesn't it.

Carl

Simon Lord
See my 5 and raise you.
See my 5 and raise you.
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Albany

Are we already being censored?

Post by Simon Lord » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:12 am

I wonder if I might offer a simple suggestion. If one individual is
causing so much aggravation, it is a simple matter in Outlook Express to
select their message, go "Message" "Block Sender" and then never be
subjected to that person's emails again.

This saves unsubscribing and depriving oneself of the benefit of the
rest of the list. The only problem comes if others are receiving
messages from the same person and respond to the whole list, but with a
modicum of self-restraint this can be ignored.

Simon
97 SR Ltd (sparkle green)
Email: simon@franchise.co.nz

Bill Rehm

Are we already being censored?

Post by Bill Rehm » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:40 am

Dear poor misguided Carl

Please read my earlier email offer of this morning to Michael ... or
Kate, or who-ever.

BTW, be assured, there is no need for you to wonder. I'm anything but
your 'average HR professional'. In fact I would not label myself as one.
Perhaps that is why those HR professionals and senior execs who do
embrace my wisdom are "High Impact" individuals, and in the case of HR
professionals are not viewed as most of them are by their 'line (versus
administrative) personnel'.

Yours faithfully
Bill

Michael & Kate Cooper

Are we already being censored?

Post by Michael & Kate Cooper » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:21 am

Bill, Kate here (not Michael, if you read correctly)

I don't have a problem with you being transparent and forthright - as long as
it doesn't involve insulting and abusing members of the list, be it on the MX5
list, or directly to their e-mail address. Maybe you should learn to bite
your lip, hold your tongue or speak your mind in a more civilised manner.

I have a saying for you that my Mum taught me :

If you can't say anything nice, say nothing.

Why take it upon yourself to spoil other peoples day; why not spread some
sunshine and happiness for a change?

As for judging others - if you re-read my original post then you will see that
I didn't pass any personal judgements on you - merely on your rude and abusive
style of expressing your opinions.

And no, I won't be taking up your offer of a meeting as I am busy running a
7-day-a-week business and bringing up a child (hopefully to have better
manners and courtesy than you portray), as well as trying to make time to
drive my MX5 - roof down of course!

(And for Gazza - it's NOT BRG!)

Good day to you

Kate Cooper

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