Fines Rant

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Donovan
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Fines Rant

Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:00 pm

I am going to have a bit of a rant about the ARC and the Ministry of fucking Justice.

Today I got a letter in the mail from the MOJ saying that I had unpaid fines, and that they have been trying to track me down, yadda yadda yadda.

I am thinking WTF, I have no outstanding fines or anything, so jump on the blower to find out what the story is. Turns out this is to do with my 05 STi Impreza, which I bought off a dealer in 06. When the plonker of a sales man delivered it, he parked on the footpath in Kitchener Street, next to a yellow line, so got a ticket. At the time the guy said it was his fault and the dealership would pay for the ticket. Since the change of ownership was done that day, I guess the ticket must have got issued to me.

Anyway, my assumption was that he had paid for it, cause we are talking about not hearing anything from 2006 till now, 8 years later. Apparently I have been hard to find, given that my name is listed on the government companies list as directors of several companies all of which have been around for the past 15 plus years, and have lived in the same house for the past 11 (you know the one that was on the registration details of the STi), and anyone with half a brain can type my name in Google and restrict the search to NZ and will find me all plastered over the first page. So it is quite obvious that I am in hiding

So in order to prove my innocence I need to fill out some long winded form, along with proof of things. The same dumb arse person that can't type a name in google, can't seem to look up on their own system to see the change of ownership details either. Never mind the fact that this has taken them a whole 8 years to tell me all this, and since then the car dealership has gone the way of the dodo, I have sold the car, and no longer have any paper work relating to the car.

In the end I just paid the fine ($90) because it was going to cost me more in time to sort it out than it was worth, but I am pissed off about the principle involved. Just another case of guilty until proven innocent.

So I would just like to say a big FUCK YOU to the MOJ and ARC, and maybe if someone got off their fat arse and used their peanut size brain for half a second, then this would have been sorted out yonks ago.

And apologies if any of you fine folk work for either of the above, you obviously don't work in the fine's department because you know how to use a computer and that it doesn't require the application of twink on the screen to remove a mistake!!

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Post by Angreal » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:31 pm

Maybe I'll just keep my bike unregistered since it seems less hassle that way and they don't get my money...

The system is most definitely stupid

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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:42 pm

"My assumption was that he had paid for it..."

:roll:

Yeah, totally the Auckland Council and the Ministry's fault!

It's unfortunate they haven't managed to track you down for whatever reason, and I could understand your frustration at having to sort it out or having to pay the additional court costs for the fine being lodged with the courts.

It's not the Ministry's fault you didn't follow up the ticket (which was issued to a vehicle in your name that you were aware of).


I used to be the one to deal with s 78B applications like your situation and I can tell you that cases like yours are the exception rather than the rule, but the car was registered under your name on the date the ticket was issued, you knew about the ticket being issued and you made the choice to let it go.
Donovan wrote:So I would just like to say a big FUCK YOU to the MOJ and ARC, and maybe if someone got off their fat arse and used their peanut size brain for half a second, then this would have been sorted out yonks ago.
Errr, yes. Eight years ago if you'd sorted the ticket on your car (which was registered to you) yourself that you were aware of. :?

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Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:03 pm

I am not blaming the assumption on my part on the MOJ or the ARC, I am blamming them for taking 8 years to follow it up. Remember, I didn't have the fine/ticket, the car salesman took it with him, saying he would sort it out. I can't pay a fine I don't have.

The normal process is issue the ticket, giving 28 days to pay the fine, if not paid by then, then issue a reminder notice that the fine is still outstanding, I never got a reminder notice, because if I had, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

I have had staff, who I have supplied company cars to, who have a habit of getting tickets without paying, and I have always got reminder notices about them being due.

You can't tell me that they suddenly didn't have the ability to lookup the registration of the car they issued the ticket to, and send out the reminder notice to the address listed. This car was in my possession for 7 years, and I have had the same PO box and live in the same house for that entire time.

So it's not the fine I am arguing about, it's the complete inability for them to do nothing for 8 years, and then start threatening me out of the blue.

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Post by Angreal » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:14 pm

I did read that Auckland Council are in serious amounts of debt which probably means they were told to chase up all fines to make some revenue... On a more serious note, the level of debt the council is in is not good

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Post by MrGrey » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:26 pm

If I was in that position and the dealer took the ticket with them saying they would sort it out and I heard nothing for 1 month I would take it at face value that they had kept their word and that it was sorted.

I know you work for the justice system Mr Shine, but no matter how you swing it, it is pretty piss poor on their behalf for their inability to chase something up. Tracking down peoples personal details is easy for a civilian so you would expect a government department to be even better at it.

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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Donovan wrote:I am not blaming the assumption on my part on the MOJ or the ARC, I am blamming them for taking 8 years to follow it up. Remember, I didn't have the fine/ticket, the car salesman took it with him, saying he would sort it out. I can't pay a fine I don't have.
So you had a ticket issued on a car that you had by that time taken ownership of but you let the salesman take it away with him. Tickets are issued against the registered vehicle owner so you must have known the responsibility in the first instance was yours, and by your choice you didn't act on it, and assumed someone else would in your stead.
The normal process is issue the ticket, giving 28 days to pay the fine, if not paid by then, then issue a reminder notice that the fine is still outstanding, I never got a reminder notice, because if I had, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place.
Correct, however it also would not be taking place if you'd dealt with it yourself in the first instance.

"Hi, I've received this ticket for a car I only received ownership for on the very same day. The person responsible is Blah Blah at Blah Blah Motors as they delivered the car."
You can't tell me that they suddenly didn't have the ability to lookup the registration of the car they issued the ticket to, and send out the reminder notice to the address listed. This car was in my possession for 7 years, and I have had the same PO box and live in the same house for that entire time.

So it's not the fine I am arguing about, it's the complete inability for them to do nothing for 8 years, and then start threatening me out of the blue.
There are many reasons why reminder notices don't reach the addresses they've sent, and most of the time it's because a digit or two is wrong, or because various details aren't otherwise updated correctly. It's unfortunate and it sucks that it's happened to you but it does happen. I can say from experience that you are the exception and not the rule.

It's not really up to the council or the Ministry to sit there and do Google searches on various people and hope it's the right one. Complaints enough that staff don't get enough done and now you want them to spend time trawling Google for names and addresses?

And they're meant to know for a fact that that Donovan they found on Google, unrelated to the vehicle in question other than by name, is the same Donovan? Imagine the outcry from people getting sent notices of unpaid fines just because they had the same name as someone else.

Seriously, think.

It's pretty simple to establish validity of a 78B application. All you need is some kind of proof of address over the time period the reminder notice would have been issued that corresponds differently to where the reminder notice is recorded as having been sent to.

It's even easier these days as you can email your application and don't even have to go into court to file it.
Angreal wrote:I did read that Auckland Council are in serious amounts of debt which probably means they were told to chase up all fines to make some revenue... On a more serious note, the level of debt the council is in is not good
Fines revenue doesn't go to the police or city/regional councils. Indeed, Auckland Council actually has to pay the Ministry for court filing fees just the same as anyone else (although as I understand the police may not - I could be wrong though).
MrGrey wrote:I know you work for the justice system Mr Shine, but no matter how you swing it, it is pretty piss poor on their behalf for their inability to chase something up. Tracking down peoples personal details is easy for a civilian so you would expect a government department to be even better at it.
I'm sorry but Joe Public isn't held to the level of legal responsibility and accountability as the Ministry of Justice, so your point is invalid, as also explained previously above.

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Post by MrGrey » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:55 pm

I don't consider my opinion invalid at all. I consider it an issue of doing the job they are paid to do. I have been contacted in the past regarding a debt that was not mine and because they took the time to contact me and make me aware of the situation I was able to explain that it was not my debt and get things sorted out. If you do not make the effort to contact someone regarding the issue, then its piss poor on their behalf to blindside someone with it 8 years later.

if it was a personal debt with a private company they would chase it up, but as its a government department you appear to be saying that they are too busy.... I feel that if you are paid to do a job and agree to do it then you should be expected to do it. If I billed someone for work done 8 years ago and it went to a disputes process then I would expect the adjudicator to ask "why has it taken 8 years for you to do something?"
And they're meant to know for a fact that that Donovan they found on Google, unrelated to the vehicle in question other than by name, is the same Donovan? Imagine the outcry from people getting sent notices of unpaid fines just because they had the same name as someone else.
At the least I would expect to send a letter asking "are you this person who owns this vehicle with this license plate" and I would consider this to come under due diligence.
Seriously, think.
indeed .... you sound as if you are taking this as a personal slight when its a failure of the systems processes and isn't questioning your personal work ethic at all.

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Post by Snapfrozen » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:57 pm

Phones about to go flat so will update at home. Had the exact same issue with a parking ticket crop up 2 years later. Ended up on fair go and got off it. Donated the $12 to charity. I'll post later

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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:22 pm

MrGrey wrote:I don't consider my opinion invalid at all. I consider it an issue of doing the job they are paid to do. I have been contacted in the past regarding a debt that was not mine and because they took the time to contact me and make me aware of the situation I was able to explain that it was not my debt and get things sorted out. If you do not make the effort to contact someone regarding the issue, then its piss poor on their behalf to blindside someone with it 8 years later.
It is invalid because you're expecting a government department with a duty in cases of this kind to prove things to the highest legal standard ("beyond a reasonable doubt" - this is different to civil matters which are generally decided by the lesser standard of "on the balance of probabilities") to rely on Google searches to turn up an address to match a name which could refer to dozens or hundreds of people? I'm sorry, but that's unreasonable and thus invalid.
if it was a personal debt with a private company they would chase it up, but as its a government department you appear to be saying that they are too busy.... I feel that if you are paid to do a job and agree to do it then you should be expected to do it. If I billed someone for work done 8 years ago and it went to a disputes process then I would expect the adjudicator to ask "why has it taken 8 years for you to do something?"
No, they wouldn't chase it up. They'd pass it on to Baycorp or similar to chase up for them. As I understand it that is the process the courts have now resorted to in certain circumstances. I've been through that with Tournament (and won :D) so I know how private companies and Baycorp love to try and deal with these things.

What I'm actually saying is that as a government department they have obligations of proving things to certain standards, as above. Finding someone's address on Google and trying to pin it to them based on that isn't sufficient.
At the least I would expect to send a letter asking "are you this person who owns this vehicle with this license plate" and I would consider this to come under due diligence.
That's basically the format the letter Donovan is talking about takes, unless I'm mistaken. It's along the lines of "We believe this person is you." You can't however expect Ministry staff to spend all their time doing Google searches to match a name (which may be very common) to an address (which thus may be completely incorrect).

I found it time consuming enough having to prepare and sign 12 standardised letters to jurors advising them of end sentences for people they'd found guilty, and I had to do that with every guilty verdict trial I took.

It's ridiculous to imagine someone sending off possibly dozens of letters on the off chance they may get the right person based on information from Google that may or may not be current and from a legal standpoint doesn't have much veracity.
indeed .... you sound as if you are taking this as a personal slight when its a failure of the systems processes and isn't questioning your personal work ethic at all.
Trust me, I'm not. I was only trying to point out how ridiculously huge an expectation it is.
Last edited by Mr. Shine on Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:27 pm

I think it's worth pointing out here that Donovan's situation is the exception and not the rule, and that the Ministry has a process in place for contesting unpaid fines. No one likes following up shit from eight years ago, and it's not like the Ministry wants people's fines to sit around unpaid for eight years.

Donovan has chosen not to take that option because he can't be bothered with it and believes it will be too difficult because it was eight years ago, but the reality is the buck could have stopped with him if he'd taken the ticket that he knew about that was issued to his car.

EDIT:

And actually, come to think about it, on the basis that he was aware of the fine any s 78B application would be refused, so the reminder notice point is moot.

Reminder notices are there to notify people in the event they were unaware of the ticket in the first instance. He was aware.

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Post by SLYDIT » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:28 pm

I wonder what the statute of limitations is for a parking ticket.
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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:42 pm

SLYDIT wrote:I wonder what the statute of limitations is for a parking ticket.
That only counts for offences that haven't had charges brought yet :P

Also - LOL someone downkarma'd me for this thread.

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Post by warrior » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:10 pm

Have one back mr. Shine
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Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:09 pm

Maybe I need to clarify some of my points, as they have been taken a bit to literal and at the time I typed them the red mist was up.

No, I don't expect the MOJ or ARC to use google to track down a person, I was using that as an example as how the normal Jo public can use the tools available to them to track down people. I do however expect them to use the tools that are available to them. It isn't that hard to look up in the LTSA database the registration of the car, to get an address and name. In fact this car wasn't even registered in my personal name, it was registered in the company name, the threatening letter however was in my name and no mention of the business.

The letter made out that they had been trying to track me down for years, and they had only just found me because I had had a credit check run against me. To be honest, I have had ton's of credit checks run against me and the business, as I do a lot of refinancing and restructuring of mortgages, and doing credit application's with different suppliers. The recent one is because I am looking at moving my personal mortgage from one bank to another, so they would have done a check against Veda (used to be Baycorp). I also do this process, as I have new customers apply for credit from me, and so have a log in to Veda. Being the curious person I am, occasionally run credit checks on me and the company (come on now, who hasn't at googled their name at least once). And guess what, my record was clean, well at least a couple of years ago it was. So would have to guess that this fine has only just been passed over to Veda. If they had passed it over to Veda many moons ago, it would have come up in their system with all my details, me being a registered customer and all, and they would have got hold of me pretty quickly. But they didn't, so it wasn't

As for the LTSA thing, the person I was talking to at the time was clearly looking up the details of the rego on the car, as they told me that I no longer owned it. So not impossible for them then to spend 1 min to do a search on the system.

Yes the ticket was issued to the registered owner at the time, but the registration was changed that day. Who is to say that at the time of issuing the ticket the car was in my name or the dealers. In fact I am guessing it would have been in the dealers, as I think I only filled out the paper work when they dropped the car off. So that being the case, would it be wrong of me to assume that the ticket was issued to the dealership and not me, especially when I didn't receive any further notification.

Again I could have clarified all this and got it sorted had someone tapped me on the shoulder 8 years ago.

It's not an issue about the money, I couldn't give a tinker's toss about $90, I do however object to the fact that they have "labelled" me as a fine dodger because of their inability to do their job or have adequate processes in place, and then turn around after a substantial amount of time and say pay up or else, without any word of apology or complaint process just beggars belief. There is no way in a million years you could get away with this sort of shit in the private corporate world, well not most of the time.

The only response was fill out the form and provide us proof of your innocence, and sorry Mr Shine, but the way I was treated it seemed more like the norm than the exception. If it was the exception I would have expected that they allow me to talk to a supervisor with half a brain (and don't mean that about in a completely negative way, but all call centres no matter private or public pay peanuts and get monkeys) who could have looked at things a bit more in-depth and gone yes, it is an unreasonable amount of time to expect someone to still have records from back in 2006 and yes I can see the registration was changed on that day so there is a chance that you might be telling the truth, and yes we have to take some responsibility for taking so long to bring this matter to your attention, when your contact details are right there in front of us, who would have ever thought that we should have used our own internal systems to find someone (ok, being a bit over the top with the sarcasm in the last part.

We hear all these stat's about how much outstanding fines there are etc, but when it takes 8 years to track down someone who isn't hiding or hasn't falsified any documents, you do have to kinda wonder how much of those outstanding fines are just because the have slack arse systems in place.

In this day and age, it is just unexcusable to have taken this long. If they really wanted to speed up the fine collection process, they just should just give the outstanding names to some over hormoned zit faced 15yr old boy and tell him that the person is a really hot horny babe, I reckon would take him exactly 15secs to track them down (again for Mr Shine, this is a tongue in check comment, not to be taken literally, I would never expect a government department to increase their productivity)

And no, I didn't take down your karma, I have however given you one back, because I am sure if I bothered to fill out the required form, track down all the necessary paper work you would have taken a sympathic look at my plee and said to yourself, there is just no way this kind and gently man of the earth could ever be guilty, I will make it my lifes mission to clear his name (in other words given my application the big thumbs up rubber stamp).

Be careful how you answer that one, there are karma points at stake.

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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:10 pm

Donovan wrote:Maybe I need to clarify some of my points, as they have been taken a bit to literal and at the time I typed them the red mist was up.

...

Be careful how you answer that one, there are karma points at stake.
Solid post.

Basically what I was trying to get across was that as ever you've got to be proactive with fines and you should never trust someone else to pay it for you if it's been issued to you, or even has possibly been issued to you. Absolutely it's possible it was issued to the dealership, but if that's so it's also entirely possible they said, "We sold the car on that day, wasn't us!"

End of the day the Ministry does have a system in place and that is the reminder notice. Maybe it doesn't always work (because yes, unfortunately there is only so much information the Ministry of Justice has direct, cross-referenced access to) but that's why there is also the system in place to have it reversed. This is what I meant by you being the exception rather than the rule - I think I only ever dealt with one or two people in my time on the criminal counter dealing with s 78B applications where the fines were more than a few years old.

Basically they get people coming and asking to have fines reversed all the time and that's probably why it seemed like you were just one more in a routine. Most of them have no reason whatsoever, and being blunt in your case Donovan, given that you knew about the fine and didn't get it sorted yourself (I know, I know, the salesman said - annoying lesson to learn) you'd probably get declined to.

It just irks me when people expect the Ministry to bend over backwards for them, while at the same time the public bitches and moans that we're too slow to get matters heard and the judges aren't making the right decisions and the police are blah blah. You can't have your cake and eat it too, folks. It's really easy for the public to comment but a lot of the time, speaking from the inside, it's just out of touch with what we do, what we're required to do, how we do it and how we're required to do it.
And no, I didn't take down your karma
Nah, I didn't think you did. I just thought it was funny that someone had while I had someone telling me they thought I was taking it personally :P

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Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:27 pm

Yes, I guess I should have known better, but I am just a bit old school and take it that my word is my mother fucking bond (quote from a shit arse movie "I love you Phillip Morris" the only good part about the movie, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na8HBMOiXM4 don't watch if you are homaphobic)

And while on the subject of movie quotes, you just can't go past the drill sergent in Full Metal Jacket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Lft6EQh-Y

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Post by MrGrey » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:05 am

Nah, I didn't think you did. I just thought it was funny that someone had while I had someone telling me they thought I was taking it personally
why not just say you think it was me?

for the record, no I didn't as I stopped caring about karma ages ago but I still feel that your initial replies came across that you were taking it personally so take that as you will.

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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:40 am

MrGrey wrote:why not just say you think it was me?
Because I didn't and I don't.

Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't trying to imply you had done so while also accusing me of taking things personally. I was just trying to say I thought it was funny that someone (you) had thought I was taking it personally and then someone else (who may or may not have been you, I wasn't putting any names to it either way) obviously was enough to downkarma.

I couldn't give a toss about karma anyway either, I just thought it was funny because I'd glanced at my karma after my first reply and wondered if it might be changed to come as a result.
Donovan wrote:Yes, I guess I should have known better, but I am just a bit old school and take it that my word is my mother fucking bond
Alas, if only others felt the same.

For the record, if it were me dealing with you trying to find out how to reverse the ticket, as above I'd tell you if you knew about the ticket you should have paid for it and on that basis I'd have to decline the application, but I'd then suggest we go on to pretend you didn't know and proceed on the basis of not receiving the reminder notice ;)

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Post by Donovan » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:34 am

What fine, never saw any fine, what are we talking about?

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Post by harlansmart » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:26 pm

Donovan,

Totally fuk'n ridiculous eh man, and as a human w/a brain (admittedly perhaps a tiny underdeveloped low performance brain) I appreciate the intelligent socially smart productive thing to do is completely and 100% and totally & wholeheartedly agree w/your sentiments, they are dickheds whose main motivation is to torture & justify their pathetic existence & enforce un-needed generally useless primary school like rules...

They are complete scumbags, retards, they have no intelligence, no morals, no common sense whatsoever.

Those fuc!tards chasing you for a pittance of $90, after 8 years or something, getting their (over)paid salaries paid by me, & you etc is the stupidest thing imaginable, not even a Swahilian 5yo mentally handicapped child would agree w/their actions.

A total waste of my money, your money, your time (I consider their time worthless) & now my time.

What we need, is a Viking Revolution, a bit of anarchy, lets get rid of all the people from Floor 2 to Floor 17 (the one down from the top) just keep the real workers & the brains & simply move all the 'middle management' etc (like those mongrels who asked you to prove you aren't guilty) to Siberia, Ekatahuna, or just leave them to fend for themselves because they'll soon die off.

I do not mind sensible, useful, productive rules, applied w/intelligence. I do not like wasting money & time enforcing unproductive unhelpful purposeless rules just because you've nothing better to do w/your life, shame on you if you do.

'Common sense, the least commonly used sense by the humans'.
Last edited by harlansmart on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:24 pm

Me get fine, me angry. Me smash, fine no fair. Me like rules make easy for me, me no like break rules get caught, me angry.

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Post by CordedBowl » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:05 pm

Mr. Shine wrote:Me get fine, me angry. Me smash, fine no fair. Me like rules make easy for me, me no like break rules get caught, me angry.
Hmm I wonder why people - karma you?

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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:38 pm

CordedBowl wrote:Hmm I wonder why people - karma you?
Because they don't like their irrationality and hypocrisy being pointed out to them? I think if you were to rephrase it though, I make a pretty good point. People love the rules when they're invisible and work for them but suddenly it's all rage and hate and unfair when they break the rules and get caught out.

Seriously though, it's pretty unreasonable for people to have a rant about something that someone on this forum has actually been involved in and not have a counter-explanation provided for them. I couldn't care less about the karma and fully expected (and continue to expect) my view to be unpopular.

I'm just trying to point out why things are they way they are, in the hope that next time people will know how best to avoid it, and in the process take some personal accountability.

Fact is, people love to bitch and rage at getting parking tickets (which is fair enough - I get parking tickets and don't like them), then go on about how they're so unreasonable and the system's just out to get everyone. And yet they're the same people who will also bitch and moan and rant when they see someone blocking a narrow street while parked on double yellow lines, or parked the tiniest bit over a driveway entrance but just enough to make their life more difficult et cetera.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, but everyone feels like they can try and pretend that they should be allowed to get away with it because they were only there for a couple of minutes or whatever. That's hypocrisy.

No apologies for being able to step back from it and say, "Yeah I fucking hate it when it happens to me too, but I'm not going to cry or rage like I think society's making me its bitch. I recognise the systems aren't perfect, but I get why these things are the way they are."

Angreal
I have stars, you haven't. Deal with it
I have stars, you haven't.  Deal with it
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Post by Angreal » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:50 pm

I guess it was summed up to me once as the law is the law. What's legal and what's right aren't necessarily the same but we must abide by the law

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