Fines Rant

Talk about stuff not related directly to MX5s. Feel free to discuss what you like, as long as you keep within the forum rules.

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Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:02 pm

Angreal wrote:I guess it was summed up to me once as the law is the law. What's legal and what's right aren't necessarily the same but we must abide by the law
Bingo. Further to that it really helps to be aware of the difference, try to have some insight into why some laws which seem "unfair" are there and how to avoid getting caught up in them.

For the record, I'm more than happy to help explain things to people if they do get tickets, or look at their cases and see if they've got a defence.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I do work for the Ministry so I think I deserve the chance to talk back, at least sarcastically ;)

Angreal
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Post by Angreal » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:04 pm

I got towed a month ago but don't want to pay. Can you help? :-P yes I deserved to get towed etc and the signs were up.

Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:33 pm

Angreal wrote:I got towed a month ago but don't want to pay. Can you help? :-P yes I deserved to get towed etc and the signs were up.
Being towed is a civil matter, which gets a bit murky. The answer to simply breach notices (i.e. the $60-odd you get from Tournament) is much simpler but I'm not sure how it relates to getting towed.

Basically private organisations can only make you pay any costs that resulted as a direct result of the breach of contract. So in the case of getting a $60 notice for not paying for parking is pretty easy to get out of, as they can only really claim the parking fee lost as a result of you not paying (so say $12 maybe). This has been backed up by the Disputes Tribunal as well.

I've been down that path with Tournament Parking and they refused to accept my argument. They turned it over to debt collectors, to whom I insisted the debt was legitimately disputed which meant they couldn't do anything about it until the dispute was resolved. At that point Tournament decided to give up and withdrew it.

In the case of being towed it's a bit murkier as the towing company probably has actually incurred at least a sizeable cost portion of the towing fee. Basically you may be able to argue the cost of it down on that basis if you're lucky, but you probably won't get off.

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Post by MrGrey » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:10 pm

I was hoping I could ask for your input Mr Shine,
yesterday I received in the post a $40 fine for "refusing or failing to pay a toll" on the northern gateway highway on the 7th of jan 2014.

I am normally pretty on to it with paying my dues but was wondering where I stand with this as I received no prior warning that there was outstanding money owing and if I had been aware I would have paid it.

I will try calling them on monday but it sounds like I have to protest this in writing which seems rather antiquated and the amount is due on the 10th of next month.

Where do I stand with this and am I being unrealistic in expecting them to have at least tell me that they wanted some money instead of waiting and then slapping me with a fine after a certain time period? can I ask for a list of all instances of trips logged for my car and payments for trips linked to my car to see if I goobered and paid after the initial 7 day due date? I am not disputing the trip but I feel it is a bit unfair to slap me with a fine out of the blue without previously giving me the opportunity to pay the outstanding amount.

thanks in advance

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Post by sprsta » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:21 pm

I have a prepaid account for the toll road.
i put like $10 a year and it saves me having to pay all the extra costs they add on when i forget to pay within 5 days.
i have all of my cars on the account.
when the credit gets low it tops up automatically so don't even have to worry about that.
its worth looking into even if you don't use it all that often (i don't)
it has saved me heaps on late fees

Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:10 pm

MrGrey wrote:I was hoping I could ask for your input Mr Shine,
yesterday I received in the post a $40 fine for "refusing or failing to pay a toll" on the northern gateway highway on the 7th of jan 2014.

I am normally pretty on to it with paying my dues but was wondering where I stand with this as I received no prior warning that there was outstanding money owing and if I had been aware I would have paid it.

I will try calling them on monday but it sounds like I have to protest this in writing which seems rather antiquated and the amount is due on the 10th of next month.

Where do I stand with this and am I being unrealistic in expecting them to have at least tell me that they wanted some money instead of waiting and then slapping me with a fine after a certain time period? can I ask for a list of all instances of trips logged for my car and payments for trips linked to my car to see if I goobered and paid after the initial 7 day due date? I am not disputing the trip but I feel it is a bit unfair to slap me with a fine out of the blue without previously giving me the opportunity to pay the outstanding amount.

thanks in advance
I've never dealt with one of these before, but my understanding is that if the toll is unpaid within five days a "toll payment notice" is sent to the vehicle's registered owner. That tacks an administrative cost on top of like $4.90. If that's unpaid within 28 days that's when an infringement notice is issued with the $40.

I would expect that you'd have some grounds on the basis of not having received the toll payment notice. It sounds like you're basically in the same situation as Donovan was in the original post, where you need to show that you didn't receive it, i.e. the burden is on you to prove you didn't receive it.

This sounds stupid, I know, but the courts consider the notice as being legally served as long as it was sent to the correct address. So get back to them and confirm where it was sent to. If it was sent to an incorrect address all you need to show is some proof of address dated from before and after the date the toll payment notice was sent, to show that you lived their across that time.

If the court records state it was sent to the correct address then you may need to come up with some evidence that you've been having mail stolen, or that you've had mail not being properly delivered.

I get that this reverse onus is a pain in the ass (I dealt with it face to face with some very, very angry people in the past) but you do have to understand from the court's side of things if they accepted at face value when people claimed they didn't receive things then EVERYONE would just waste the court's time.

Donovan
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Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:01 pm

Mr Grey, just do what I do, don't take the toll road, take the old road past Waiwera, much more fun road, and on busy holidays usually just as quick because everyone else is clogging the tunnel.

I also refuse to pay for any sort of toll for something that I have already essentially paid in the way of road tax on my petrol. Have to pay that tax on things like my mower, hedge trimmer, boat, and none of them ever see the road (well maybe the boat sometimes).

And yes, I am winging again.

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Post by GRUVBB » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:12 pm

In the Good Old Days the diesel you purchased from a wharf for the boat did not have road tax slapped on it.... Those days are long gone now.

Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:12 pm

GRUVBB wrote:In the Good Old Days the diesel you purchased from a wharf for the boat did not have road tax slapped on it.... Those days are long gone now.
Unless it's different between the wharf and the station fuel pump, the only tax you pay on diesel is GST.

Donovan
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Post by Donovan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:31 pm

Don't pay road tax on diesel, that's what Road User Charges cover.

GRUVBB
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Post by GRUVBB » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:28 pm

There are exise taxes on fuels a well which are incorporated into the price. I remember my Dad ranting about the difference in prices in the old days. Im not old enough to fully remember what taxes were incurred. My slip up saying road tax.

Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:27 am

The AA website seems to disagree, aside from Emissions Trading Scheme charges:

"There are no taxes on diesel other than GST. Instead, diesel vehicles pay Road User Charges. All fuels also pay an Emissions Trading Scheme charge (approximately 1 cent per litre)."

Further, according to here fuel excise makes up about 30% of the cost of a litre of petrol. Remove that 30% and you've got something fairly similar to the cost of diesel, which suggests that excise just isn't there :)

Diesel users have it pretty cushy in terms of how much they're required to "contribute" to roading and transport costs through RUC versus petrol taxes.

Donovan
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Post by Donovan » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:14 am

Mr. Shine wrote:Diesel users have it pretty cushy in terms of how much they're required to "contribute" to roading and transport costs through RUC versus petrol taxes.
Correction, some diesel users have it pretty cushy, those with the big old thirsty smokey SUV's. If you drive a small diesel car, or euro diesel (like I do) that does between between 4 - 7 l/100km, because you pay the RUC based on distance driven rather than amount of fuel used, you pay more in road tax than the equivalent petrol.

Angreal
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Post by Angreal » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:05 pm

Unplug the speedo...? Just kidding

Mr. Shine
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Post by Mr. Shine » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:16 pm

That's a fair point as diesel vehicles have become more and more fuel efficient, but that's just another reason to have RUC overhauled - unfair at both ends of the spectrum for diesel users!

GRUVBB
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Post by GRUVBB » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:15 pm

Angreal wrote:Unplug the speedo...? Just kidding
Reminds me of hiring a rental car some years back. Paid in advance for a set amount of KM. Think it was about 500..... Got to Rotorua and disconnected the speedo cable without breaking the seal( a lead one like on elctric meter board)..... Drove on to Wellington and everywhere else we wanted to go. Got back to AK and reconnected. Got a refund for not using all our prepaid KM. I know it was wrong but as a youngster it felt good getting one over the Corporates. :oops:

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Post by warrior » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:22 pm

legend.
warrior

MrGrey
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Post by MrGrey » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:29 am

it turns out my fine was not $40 but two fines of $40 for the seventh of Jan ... it was totally my own fault as I paid after the due date (I paid on the 17th). I rang up Toll's and spoke to a very helpful lady and was able to explain how I didn't receive an overdue payment notice, and in light of my previous history of payment and willingness to set things right, I received this in my email inbox today
Good afternoon Stephen

In response to your phone call on 28 March 2014 regarding the Toll Payment Notices and Infringement Notice issued for travel in the Mazda Eunos, registration plate MX590.

This letter is to confirm the Toll Payment Notice VN2327093 and the Infringement Notices IN441891 and IN441892 have been cancelled and will not require payment.
I will chalk this down as a lesson learned am grateful to have spoken to representatives of a government agency who where both understanding and helpful.

I was not trying to do a dodgy and avoid payment and I am grateful they were able to see that. Thank you Toll Road Services.

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