flat battery and trying to hill start.....and ABS

[WiM]

Hi Peter, answer in CAPITALS
WiM

Quoting Peter Garrity <petergarrity@gmail.com> on Tue, 8 Nov 2005
23:19:46 +1300:

Hi all,
still getting to know our new 1996 Black Eunos Roadster which we
absolutely love! I left the parking lights on over night and of
course the battery was totally dead by the next afternoon, when we
had to get somewhere in a hurry.
I tried to hill start it but that didn't work. Was wondering whether
that was because of the fuel injection or the immobiliser?? Our
battery was so dead a neighbour trying to help us with a jump just
produced clicks from the starter.
COULD HAVE BEEEN THE IMMOBILIZER, BUT NO REAL IDEA, NORMALLY HILL
STARTS ALWAYS WORK UNLESS THE IMMOBILIZER NEEDS ELECTRICiTY OF
COURSE... WHAT IF YOU DISCONNECT AND THEN HILLSTART?

The AA guy said we still have the original battery which if is true
is really impressive. When replacing the battery do you try to get
the panasonic battery recom
mended or is there another sealed battery
which is equivalent??It was interesting looking at the AA battery
guide for various models of cars. The NA mx5s had an available
battery model listed ($129) but the same year Eunos Roadster had "see
dealer"??? I thought they were the same car!
THEY ARE THE SAME CAR SO NO WORRIES THERE. IT CAN WELL BE THE
ORIGINAL BATTERY, MINE WAS 13YEARS OLD WHEN I FINALLY REPLACED IT.
THERE IS TWO OPTIONS FOR YOUR BATTERY PROBLEM. EASIEST IS THE
PANASONIC BATTERY AS IT IS WHAT MAZDA PUT IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST
PLACE. WESTCO IS AN AMERICAN BRAND AND THEY HAVE A SEALED UNIT TOO,
BUT THE SIZE IS DIFFERENT AND IT IS NOT A FIT AND DRIVE, YOU WILL
NEED TO ADJUST BRACKETS OR LEAVE THE UNDERTRAY OUT, WHICH IS NOT GOOD
FOR THE CAR IF THE BATTERY WOULD DECIDE ON LEAKING SOME ACID...
Also, we have a fuse in te ABS position in the main fuse box. Does
that mean we have ABS? It's just that the other day I tested them and

the wheels definitely locked up and there was no pumping effect???
CHANCES OF NOT HAVING ABS ON THE 1996 CAR IS SLIM, HAVE YOU TRIED TO
BANG THE BRAKE PEDAL THROUGH THE METAL IN ONE GO?? OTHER THING HOW TO
KNOW IF YOU HAVE ABS IS HAVING A LOOK UNDER THE BONNET. JUST BEHIND
THE RADIATOR ON THE PASSENGER SIDE OF THE CAR THERE SHOULD BE A BLACK
PLASTIC CANISTER WITH A SORT OF LEVER ON THE TOP... AND IF IT IS EASY
TO PARK THE CAR THEN YOU HAVE ABS FOR SURE, MINE (1191) DOES NOT HAVE
ABS AND IS NOT LIGHT TO PARK, BUT I WOULDN'T HAVE IT DIFFERENT. Cheers,
Peter


WiM
'91 1.6 MX-5 (due to immigration for sale)
www.mx5ireland.com
www.cardomain.com/memberpage/312875

[Grant]

I would expect to be able to use jumper leads to start the car with no
problems. I have had to do this as mine is an auto so no possibility of push
(or hill) start! As you only got clicking, then I suspect the jumper leads
had a bad connection at one end or the other so could not supply the rather
large current required to start the car.
Your battery might still be ok. These batteries often respond well to a long
very slow trickle charge over a period of a few days so try this if you have
a trickle charger available. The NZ new MX5 and the Eunos Roadster are
essentially the same car with a few minor cosmetic differences such as the
plastic rear panel that holds the rear number plate. The battery is the same
in both though.
As for the ABS brakes, any mechanic or knowledgeable friend should be able
to identify whether you have ABS fitted with a quick look under the bonnet.
I know what to look for but have trouble describing it (especially at
midnight!). Otherwise, find a flat smooth grassy paddock, drive along and
then stomp hard on the brakes. You will feel and probably hear the rapid on
and off cycling of the brakes. You can feel this pumping on the brake pedal.
If the brakes lock up you don't have ABS.
Another way to check is to go to your local club outing and ask how to
identify the ABS system. There will be plenty of volunteers just looking for
an excuse to inspect the under bonnet area!

Grant.

[Grant]

I would expect to be able to use jumper leads to start the car with no
problems. I have had to do this as mine is an auto so no possibility of push
(or hill) start! As you only got clicking, then I suspect the jumper leads
had a bad connection at one end or the other so could not supply the rather
large current required to start the car.
Your battery might still be ok. These batteries often respond well to a long
very slow trickle charge over a period of a few days so try this if you have
a trickle charger available. The NZ new MX5 and the Eunos Roadster are
essentially the same car with a few minor cosmetic differences such as the
plastic rear panel that holds the rear number plate. The battery is the same
in both though.
As for the ABS brakes, any mechanic or knowledgeable friend should be able
to identify whether you have ABS fitted with a quick look under the bonnet.
I know what to look for but have trouble describing it (especially at
midnight!). Otherwise, find a flat smooth grassy paddock, drive along and
then stomp hard on the brakes. You will feel and probably hear the rapid on
and off cycling of the brakes. You can feel this pumping on the brake pedal.
If the brakes lock up you don't have ABS.
Another way to check is to go to your local club outing and ask how to
identify the ABS system. There will be plenty of volunteers just looking for
an excuse to inspect the under bonnet area!

Grant.

[Michael & Kate Cooper]

Hi there

There is the option of getting a standard battery for your MX5, but it won't
last nearly as long and with the battery in the boot, there is the worry that
battery acid may get on your shopping/luggage at some stage. The correct
battery has gel rather than acid, so it doesn't leak if tipped up. They are a
lot more expensive - I think closer to $200, but will last for ages, so the
cost over the life of the battery is low. If you are in the NZ MX5 Club, then
you local Mazda dealer should give you a discount on the purchase price.

There have been a lot of cases where battery "experts" have written off the
Mazda gel batteries as being stuffed, when they're not. Due to the design of
the battery, a normal car battery charger will not charge them successfully -
they need a trickle charger - I believe that it needs to charge them at 1 Amp
or less (can this be verified, please?). A trickle charger is available from
Repco. After a good long trickle charge, batteries that seemed dead as a dodo
have been resurrected!

Ciao

Kate

From jifjif@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:07 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:04:26 +1300
From: ~Jeff~ <jifjif@gmail.com>
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
Subject: Re: flat battery and trying to hill start.....and ABS
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I've had a battery so flat before that it wouldn't roll start, as I
deduced by the bottom of the hill

Came back after a charge up tho !


On 11/9/05, The Simpsons <grant@simtronics.co.nz> wrote:
[...]

[Michael & Kate Cooper]

Hi there

There is the option of getting a standard battery for your MX5, but it won't
last nearly as long and with the battery in the boot, there is the worry that
battery acid may get on your shopping/luggage at some stage. The correct
battery has gel rather than acid, so it doesn't leak if tipped up. They are a
lot more expensive - I think closer to $200, but will last for ages, so the
cost over the life of the battery is low. If you are in the NZ MX5 Club, then
you local Mazda dealer should give you a discount on the purchase price.

There have been a lot of cases where battery "experts" have written off the
Mazda gel batteries as being stuffed, when they're not. Due to the design of
the battery, a normal car battery charger will not charge them successfully -
they need a trickle charger - I believe that it needs to charge them at 1 Amp
or less (can this be verified, please?). A trickle charger is available from
Repco. After a good long trickle charge, batteries that seemed dead as a dodo
have been resurrected!

Ciao

Kate

From jifjif@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:07 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:04:26 +1300
From: ~Jeff~ <jifjif@gmail.com>
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
Subject: Re: flat battery and trying to hill start.....and ABS
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I've had a battery so flat before that it wouldn't roll start, as I
deduced by the bottom of the hill

Came back after a charge up tho !


On 11/9/05, The Simpsons <grant@simtronics.co.nz> wrote:
[...]

[Simon Lord]

When I have been unable to jump start a car, it has usually been for one of
three reasons.

1. The jump leads would not carry a large enough charge. I now have a heavy
duty set.
2. The car from which I was jumping could not produce a sufficiently large
charge (a couple of times the AA with a huge heavy duty battery were able to
do what the Subaru couldn't)
3. The battery was totally, totally drained. After an hour or so on a
charger it had enough power to be jump started. I now have a good trickle
charger which keeps the MX5 and the lawnmower happy.

Peter, if you get the latest issue of Top Down there is a useful article in
there on fitting a buzzer to tell you when you have left your lights on. It
almost looks simple enough for me to try it...

Re ABS, I have a 97 NA and that doesn't have ABS - I had a flat-spotted tyre
to prove it!

Simon

From chris.tankard@aderant.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:05 2007
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Rollbars - was MX5's for sale on Trade Me
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:37:33 +1300
Thread-Topic: Rollbars - was MX5's for sale on Trade Me
Thread-Index: AcXkkshOjYS3yg9MT62m3SiXIH36FQAEWMlQ
From: "Chris Tankard" <chris.tankard@aderant.com>
To: "MX5List" <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
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Hey Ian,

If it fails to get published can you please send me a copy?

Thanks.

C

[Simon Lord]

When I have been unable to jump start a car, it has usually been for one of
three reasons.

1. The jump leads would not carry a large enough charge. I now have a heavy
duty set.
2. The car from which I was jumping could not produce a sufficiently large
charge (a couple of times the AA with a huge heavy duty battery were able to
do what the Subaru couldn't)
3. The battery was totally, totally drained. After an hour or so on a
charger it had enough power to be jump started. I now have a good trickle
charger which keeps the MX5 and the lawnmower happy.

Peter, if you get the latest issue of Top Down there is a useful article in
there on fitting a buzzer to tell you when you have left your lights on. It
almost looks simple enough for me to try it...

Re ABS, I have a 97 NA and that doesn't have ABS - I had a flat-spotted tyre
to prove it!

Simon

From chris.tankard@aderant.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:05 2007
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Rollbars - was MX5's for sale on Trade Me
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 09:37:33 +1300
Thread-Topic: Rollbars - was MX5's for sale on Trade Me
Thread-Index: AcXkkshOjYS3yg9MT62m3SiXIH36FQAEWMlQ
From: "Chris Tankard" <chris.tankard@aderant.com>
To: "MX5List" <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
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Message-ID: <G2_kGC.A.rFE.FxYMGB@L733>

Hey Ian,

If it fails to get published can you please send me a copy?

Thanks.

C

[Jon Addison]

Hi,

South Auckland Motors price for a new Panasonic battery a couple of
months ago was $161.60 (incl GST).
The advice I received was that standard car batteries fume. In an
enclosed boot the fumes condense on thinly-painted steel, causing rust.
This is not a problem when the battery is under the bonnet where
there's plenty of air flow.
The BMW has a similar arrangement to the MX-5's, with the addition of
special jump start terminals under the bonnet.
Incidentally I have an isolating switch on the earth side of the
battery, which is not recommended. It's a NZ 1990, so has no electrics.
So far, no problem, touch wood. If I expect the car to be unused for
more than two-three weeks, I flick the isolating switch off.
The only oddity is that when switched back on, the (standard) radio
won't switch on for 10-15 minutes, then goes fine. It did this prior
to fitting the switch, whenever the battery was disconnected.
Jon Addison

On 09/11/2005, at 7:57 AM, Michael & Kate Cooper wrote:

[...]

[Jon Addison]

Hi,

South Auckland Motors price for a new Panasonic battery a couple of
months ago was $161.60 (incl GST).
The advice I received was that standard car batteries fume. In an
enclosed boot the fumes condense on thinly-painted steel, causing rust.
This is not a problem when the battery is under the bonnet where
there's plenty of air flow.
The BMW has a similar arrangement to the MX-5's, with the addition of
special jump start terminals under the bonnet.
Incidentally I have an isolating switch on the earth side of the
battery, which is not recommended. It's a NZ 1990, so has no electrics.
So far, no problem, touch wood. If I expect the car to be unused for
more than two-three weeks, I flick the isolating switch off.
The only oddity is that when switched back on, the (standard) radio
won't switch on for 10-15 minutes, then goes fine. It did this prior
to fitting the switch, whenever the battery was disconnected.
Jon Addison

On 09/11/2005, at 7:57 AM, Michael & Kate Cooper wrote:

[...]

[KSCRIM]

If the battery is completly flat, ie no lights or anything, then the car
will NOT start on a push or roll start as there is no power for the
ignition, fuel pump or to start the alternator charging.
If there is ABS fitted then there is a cube (about 130mm) with lots of pipes
going to it mounted on the passenger side firewall at the back of the engine
bay.

Kevin

[...]

[KSCRIM]

If the battery is completly flat, ie no lights or anything, then the car
will NOT start on a push or roll start as there is no power for the
ignition, fuel pump or to start the alternator charging.
If there is ABS fitted then there is a cube (about 130mm) with lots of pipes
going to it mounted on the passenger side firewall at the back of the engine
bay.

Kevin

[...]

[zorruno]

on 9/11/2005 7:57 a.m. Michael & Kate Cooper wrote:

The correct battery has gel rather than acid, so it doesn't leak if
tipped up. They are a lot more expensive - I think closer to $200, but

actually I think the standard OEM batteries are not really Gel (like the
sealed lead acid batteries used for alarm panels, small UPSs etc), they
have normal electrolyte which is absorbed into fibreglass sheets (AGM -
absorbed glass mat). Still does the same job of not easily leaking when
you are upside down, but I doubt SLA gel type batteries could give
enough starting current to engines of this size*. I think some
motorbikes use SLAs though. Someone feel free to correct me if this is
not the case.

cheers
zorruno

* PS in a past life I worked for a smallish security company and one of
our technicians had an old van that he kept leaving the lights on. We
used to use 2x 6 amp hour 12V SLA alarm panel batteries to start it
again... in series to give 24V. Would kill modern car electronics, as
it was a 12V system, but when starting, the voltage would drop to around
10V or so with the starting current, which was just enough to kick it
into starting!

From supasparky@yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 27 17:24:02 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 02:44:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: glenn roberts <supasparky@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Roll bars : GET OVER IT !!!!!!
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
In-Reply-To: <003b01c5e495$77c7f3e0$2f04b9d2@your5139538146>
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I find this whole rollbar thread kind of stupid
really...
If you want a safe car buy a volvo.
Or buy an mx5 with side intrusion bars, airbags, and
rool over hoops...An NC in other words.
Stle bars that fit behid the seats are not going to
mousetrap you as they are mostly narrower than the
seat and therefore wont be able to come "over" you.
they simply arent that big. Im sure Audi thought of
that when they designed the TT's style bars too.
"mouse trapping is simply an old wives tale.
Why spend all youre time worrying about an event that
may never happen. Youre more likely to be T Boned or
run up the ass of someone but youre not discussing
side intrusion beams or airbag fitting.
GET OVER IT, DRIVE YOURE CAR AND ENJOY IT FOR WHAT IT
IS... A CONVERTIBLE.


Glenn "SLYDIT"
http://miata.cardomain.com/id/supasparky
Currently building a DIY Turbo..Subaru VF10 Turbo, Weld el manifold, 2.5"exhaust,subaru BOV, Isuzu intercooler, 330cc GTX injectors, dual feed fuel rail,RX7 air flow meter, Greddy Emanage piggy back computor.Custom full length cold air box...YEEEEEHHHAAA
Hopefully finished by summer:)

[zorruno]

on 9/11/2005 7:57 a.m. Michael & Kate Cooper wrote:

The correct battery has gel rather than acid, so it doesn't leak if
tipped up. They are a lot more expensive - I think closer to $200, but

actually I think the standard OEM batteries are not really Gel (like the
sealed lead acid batteries used for alarm panels, small UPSs etc), they
have normal electrolyte which is absorbed into fibreglass sheets (AGM -
absorbed glass mat). Still does the same job of not easily leaking when
you are upside down, but I doubt SLA gel type batteries could give
enough starting current to engines of this size*. I think some
motorbikes use SLAs though. Someone feel free to correct me if this is
not the case.

cheers
zorruno

* PS in a past life I worked for a smallish security company and one of
our technicians had an old van that he kept leaving the lights on. We
used to use 2x 6 amp hour 12V SLA alarm panel batteries to start it
again... in series to give 24V. Would kill modern car electronics, as
it was a 12V system, but when starting, the voltage would drop to around
10V or so with the starting current, which was just enough to kick it
into starting!

From supasparky@yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 27 17:24:02 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 02:44:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: glenn roberts <supasparky@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Roll bars : GET OVER IT !!!!!!
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
In-Reply-To: <003b01c5e495$77c7f3e0$2f04b9d2@your5139538146>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Precedence: list
Message-ID: <_N9zOC.A.vFE.FxYMGB@L733>

I find this whole rollbar thread kind of stupid
really...
If you want a safe car buy a volvo.
Or buy an mx5 with side intrusion bars, airbags, and
rool over hoops...An NC in other words.
Stle bars that fit behid the seats are not going to
mousetrap you as they are mostly narrower than the
seat and therefore wont be able to come "over" you.
they simply arent that big. Im sure Audi thought of
that when they designed the TT's style bars too.
"mouse trapping is simply an old wives tale.
Why spend all youre time worrying about an event that
may never happen. Youre more likely to be T Boned or
run up the ass of someone but youre not discussing
side intrusion beams or airbag fitting.
GET OVER IT, DRIVE YOURE CAR AND ENJOY IT FOR WHAT IT
IS... A CONVERTIBLE.


Glenn "SLYDIT"
http://miata.cardomain.com/id/supasparky
Currently building a DIY Turbo..Subaru VF10 Turbo, Weld el manifold, 2.5"exhaust,subaru BOV, Isuzu intercooler, 330cc GTX injectors, dual feed fuel rail,RX7 air flow meter, Greddy Emanage piggy back computor.Custom full length cold air box...YEEEEEHHHAAA
Hopefully finished by summer:)

[Grant]

You are correct about the AGM battery zorruno. It is not a gel type. There is
(or should be!) a small plastic tube that pushes onto a vent on the AGM
battery to vent any gases to the outside world as well. Both my cars have
standard so called sealed low maintenance type batteries fitted as that was
what was in them when I bought them. I will replace them with the AGM type
when I need to though but as there are no signs of problems with the present
ones they can stay there.
I have started my car using a 17a/h sealed lead acid gel type battery and it
had no trouble supplying the current. A 7a/h one was not up to the task. I
have a number of these so it was worth a try. The jump start units sold at
places like Super Cheap Auto usually have a SLA of around 17a/h in them.
Cheap jumper leads will be ok for an MX5. $10.00 ones from The Warehouse are
ok as the start current is not too high. I have used them for this after not
closing the door properly and leaving the interior light on for a few days.
They have no hope of starting my Isuzu Bighorn though (3.1L 4 cylinder
Diesel) with those leads, even with a well charged 180a/h SLA. The leads do
get rather warm though. Heavy duty leads required for that task!

Grant.

From ibeardslee@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:00 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:31:27 +1300
From: Ian Beardslee <ibeardslee@gmail.com>
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
Subject: Re: Roll bars : GET OVER IT !!!!!!
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Shhhhh!

On 11/9/05, Nina <nina@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
[...]

From petergarrity@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:00 2007
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:56:12 +1300
From: Peter Garrity <petergarrity@gmail.com>
To: mx5list@mx5club.org.nz
Subject: flat battery and trying to hill start.....and ABS
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Message-ID: <94ySZB.A.0FE.FxYMGB@L733>

thanks for all the advice!!!

[Grant]

You are correct about the AGM battery zorruno. It is not a gel type. There is
(or should be!) a small plastic tube that pushes onto a vent on the AGM
battery to vent any gases to the outside world as well. Both my cars have
standard so called sealed low maintenance type batteries fitted as that was
what was in them when I bought them. I will replace them with the AGM type
when I need to though but as there are no signs of problems with the present
ones they can stay there.
I have started my car using a 17a/h sealed lead acid gel type battery and it
had no trouble supplying the current. A 7a/h one was not up to the task. I
have a number of these so it was worth a try. The jump start units sold at
places like Super Cheap Auto usually have a SLA of around 17a/h in them.
Cheap jumper leads will be ok for an MX5. $10.00 ones from The Warehouse are
ok as the start current is not too high. I have used them for this after not
closing the door properly and leaving the interior light on for a few days.
They have no hope of starting my Isuzu Bighorn though (3.1L 4 cylinder
Diesel) with those leads, even with a well charged 180a/h SLA. The leads do
get rather warm though. Heavy duty leads required for that task!

Grant.

From ibeardslee@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:00 2007
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Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:31:27 +1300
From: Ian Beardslee <ibeardslee@gmail.com>
To: MX5List <mx5list@mx5club.org.nz>
Subject: Re: Roll bars : GET OVER IT !!!!!!
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Message-ID: <feu89D.A.zFE.FxYMGB@L733>

Shhhhh!

On 11/9/05, Nina <nina@enternet.co.nz> wrote:
[...]

From petergarrity@gmail.com Fri Apr 27 17:24:00 2007
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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 00:56:12 +1300
From: Peter Garrity <petergarrity@gmail.com>
To: mx5list@mx5club.org.nz
Subject: flat battery and trying to hill start.....and ABS
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Message-ID: <94ySZB.A.0FE.FxYMGB@L733>

thanks for all the advice!!!