New Tyre place... Does Cambers, self spec wheel alignment

Shermio · Post by **Shermio** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:30 am

Hey People, I have taken the plunge and have gotten myself a set of Toyo T1Rs and man do they feel good...

While I was at the shop I got to know one of the guys pretty well and he told me that they have NZ's 1st machine that does Camber adjustments.... very tempting for $45

Apparently they have done a few on the MX5s NA and NB.

I would just like to know is there a good write up on the sort of specs that are proven? and how does it compare to stock?

The place is called Tyre Tech (Used to be Tyre Power) on the shore they are running specials for MX5s for any tyre or camber needs or own spec wheel alignments. Just mention Sherman sent you and you should receive in house specials

Toyos T1R 205/45/R16 $170 Fit and balance incl GST

Camber adjustment $45

Own spec wheel alignment $65

They are really friendly and offer good advice... and I'm not getting paid to say all this...

I'm seriously looking to see if camber will make a difference, I'll do some research before I leap on it like I normally

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:13 pm

sounds dodgy to me...

the mx5 is adjustable in ALL axis of movement camber/caster/toe on both front and back...
ANY back yard alignment place can adjust the mx5 properly..its all about the guy doing the alignment. and it sounds to me that they have NO IDEA what they are doing....

a good street alignment is....camber -1 degree front and back. Castor MAX that will allow -1 degree of camber on both sides.(castor should be at least +4.5 degress on both sides.) and set toe depending on driving style but 1/16th toe in front and rear is a good start. or you could go 1/16th toe in rear only and NO toe front for better turn in...

Drive that car for a few months and see how your tyre wear is going then adjust the camber to suit.

Shermio · Post by **Shermio** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:39 pm

Huh? what do you mean sounds dodgy? I believe the machine does gives the weights on the outside and inside of the tire... Will look into to it... But I was in a hurry that day and didn't ask them what they meant by the 1st machine in NZ to do it... the guy who owns the place has been in a pit crew for a lot of the V8s... Just wanted to know some adjustment specs that's all...

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm

"they have NZ's 1st machine that does Camber adjustments"

machines dont do adjustments..the technician does. Camber is adjusted by turning adjustment bolts on the wishbones. Camber has been able to be adjusted since adam was a cowboy....dont know what he is on about saying he has a machine to do it....he is either pulling your leg or you have got him confused....i payed $65 for a full all axis alignment to my spec

Shermio · Post by **Shermio** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:20 pm

Yeah I thought so as well... I was in a hurry when I was in their shop but I did see computers hooked up to scales 2 scales per wheel (inside and outside) and lasers... I;ll ask them when I next go there...

Could all be a simple case of mis-understanding

SLYDIT · Post by **SLYDIT** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:07 pm

do you have adjustable suspension? maybe they were talking about corner weighting

Baadfast · Post by **Baadfast** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:19 am

My MX5 was someones 'Sunday car' in Japan ... someone who likes to drive ... very hard.

I drove it for 8K until the Yokohamas on the rear were dead, so when I put new Bridgestones on it, I had the wheel alignment checked.
Not before I did heaps of research on the net and talked to a couple of mechanics I know.

The car handled absolutley superb, a bit twitchy at motor way speeds, but out back of Piha ... pure glue.

The settings were:
Front:
Camber 1.5
Toe 2mm in (1/ 8th)
Caster - Max

Rear
Camber 2
Toe 2mm in

All I've had changed is the toe for the front to compensate for the very heavy rear camber, it now is 2mm out.

These are VERY performance oriented settings and only suitable if you don't mind giving away 20 - 30% of your tyre wear ... so not for the Nannies.

So far it seems fantasticly sure-footed and predicable and tyre wear on the old tyres was even and symetrical.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:33 pm

I gather the figures quoted indicate negative camber. Please confirm.

Thanks, Trevor.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:24 pm

Trevor wrote:I gather the figures quoted indicate negative camber. Please confirm.

Thanks, Trevor.

Yes it will be. 99% of modern cars run negative camber...unles you drive a Triumph Hereald or early VW.

poison · Post by **poison** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:57 pm

Oh yes that once familiar stomach tightening feeling of the old Volkswagen suspension when you went too fast around a corner… lol….

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Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:18 pm

Technically unless a minus sign prefixes the figure positive camber is indicated and this created a slight doubt. The specifications I have for my 1.8 Ltr. MX5 shows front camber figures depending on ride height, between 0 deg. 03 min. and 1 deg. 02 min. Rear camber, between 1.08 deg. and 0 deg. 30 min. This would make the MX5 one the stated 1% of unusual cars and makes me wonder if the specs I have are in error.

For a short time I owned a Triumph Vitesse soft top. I recall an interesting moment driving it home after collecting it in Hastings. It got to about 60* without any real sense of sliding, more of a side step, but my reflexes were up to it!

An after market centre pivoted transverse spring promptly fitted helped a lot, but I never took to the car, even as a daily driver.

Trevor.

Baadfast · Post by **Baadfast** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:44 pm

Apologies for the vagueness Trevor.
Yes it was negative camber (cheers Growler), since then I've had a blast or 2 up north and I can confirm that the 2 mm toe out for the front is rubbish.
There's now a significant feeling of 'vagueness' now in the front end and when I'm almost through the corners the rear feels a bit 'wallowey' and it's a wee bit scarey.
Where as before it felt safe as houses and I was finding it a challenge to locate the edge of the grip.

The wheel alignment guy talked me into the 'toe out', nannying on and on about the 'excessive rear camber needing it for safety' - The 'real world' test proves that's a 'crock' for my car, I'm having it changed back ASAP.

Some good ideas about specs:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html
http://www.miata.net/garage/align.html - Stock settings down the end of the article Shermio.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:04 am

Beadfast, no apology required or expected.

Not surprised regarding your advice covering toe. On the basis of science and logic, the front wheels should be parallel when in motion. A dash of toe-in is normal to compensate for a little movement/play in the system.

I have always been convinced that a little negative camber is a good thing even on a road car and have found that tyre wear is in fact improved. The outer edges get one hell of a hammering in the city due to constant tight cornering. It is not technically correct, but it works in practice. What is more a tyre broken away towards sliding is more predictable with a spot of negative camber.

Personally, on the basis of experience I have no faith in fancy alignment machines. There are hundreds of opportunities for error in respect of, original installation, lack of checking against a standard, damage and most of all operator incompetence. However the read-out does look pretty.

Properly used, a level floor, a length of string, a plumb bob, and an accurate square, when used with care and intelligence, can not be wrong. A spirit level can also be an accurate tool, provided that it is checked by taking reverse measurements and if different, using the mean. Handyman results can be spot on and provide absolute assurance and satisfaction.

Some illustrations possibly of interest to set the brain in motion and which can simplified and adapted Kiwi fashion:-

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1093484

http://elantragtclub.com/elantra/id554.html

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/alignment.htm

Camber gauges are mentioned, but these are not required if linear measure is used in lieu of angles. Anyone wish to get fancy can convert using trigonometry. Plumb bob or spirit level will provide the required vertical references.

A previous post of mine resulted in a backlash of in affect, “don’t give us your opinion we are experts, you are but a Johnny come lately.” In this instance readers can accept my comments, or delete them as they see fit, no problem this end.

Trevor. *<)

Gravelben · Post by **Gravelben** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:29 pm

I've never done any DIY alignment stuff myself but would have to agree that doing it the 'old-fashioned' way with stringlines etc can be just as good or better than the fancy machines - ever noticed how WRC teams set their cars up in pre-rally service? on scales for corner weighting, using stringlines for alignment...

If you're not careful or don't know what you're doing I imagine it would be easy to make a car handle like an absolute dog, but thats down to the person doing it rather than the system used and can apply equally to a poorly used laser alignment system.

poison · Post by **poison** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:35 pm

I remember going to an old chap who was a wheel alignment specialist (back in the late 70’s) and he was explaining that wheel alignment was in fact a qualification of it’s own, and he was unhappy that all the tyre shops were starting to do it with little or no training. They just know how to match the settings to spec, but not what it all really means. It’s pretty clear that there’s very few qualified and/or skilled around today.

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Baadfast · Post by **Baadfast** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:32 am

Sherm's right to recommend Tyretech as the place for fantastic service, great equipment and a excellent result.

Their John Bean Visualiner Arago V3D (Snapon) wheel alignment machine is a joy to behold, high speed digital imaging, state of the art 3D modelling. Apparently the only one in the southern hemisphere, $50K's worth of software alone - http://www.snaponequipment.com/johnbean ... go_v3d.asp. It does everything you need and is even to a certain extent self-calibrating. As they point out on the website 'it's one of the most highly advanced pieces of service equipment money can buy.'

Even the wheel balancing machine uses a laser to indicate precisely where the weight should go.

Justin the manager seemed overly concerned with my getting a good experience at his establishment ... nice.

. Even allowing me to sit in the car while the alignment was being done, I'd already checked the tyre pressures and filled the tank.

Dan the technician although only 25 has been in the tyre industry since he was 16 and using alignment equipment for the last 6 years. He said he's used most of the main types of alignment machines and done quite a few industry courses, Bridgestone, Sulco etc.

Well ... what did we find after my last alignment ... not exactly what I'd reported in my post that's for sure.

Camber/ toe
Front
Left ---------Right
(-.5) ------ (-1.5)
2mm Toe out
Rear
(-2.6)------(-2.9)
2mm Toe in
My Thrust angle was 1deg out.

It's been reset to:
Front
(-1.5) ----- (-1.5)
No Toe, dead straight
Rear
(-2) -------(-2)
2mm Toe in

After a couple of test runs around a few corners I know and love .... it's back to 'holy batpoo batman hang on to your underwear', type superb, sensations.
The nice direct, pointed feel is back in the steering and the rear feels planted with that confidence inspiring feel again.
So if you need your baby looked after, don't hesitate.

I'm happier than a happy thing from planet Happy

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:05 am

Their John Bean Visualiner Arago V3D (Snapon) wheel alignment machine is a joy to behold, high speed digital imaging, state of the art 3D modelling. Apparently the only one in the southern hemisphere, $50K's worth of software alone -

Placebo

Baadfast · Post by **Baadfast** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:21 pm

Placebo

Ludite

Go play with your string

poison · Post by **poison** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:59 am

Ludite????

Luddite perhaps

Go play with your dictionary

[Posted via external email]

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:34 pm

poison wrote:Ludite????

Luddite perhaps

Go play with your dictionary

[Posted via external email]

Thanks, I am not good at gibberish. But yes a "luddite", when one of those hates the boss and bends something even a little, heaven help those getting alignments over the next extended period.

Alternatively the clumsy coot who drops a sensor, or forgets to remove one before moving the car and naturally does not tell the boss. The possible reasons for error are endless.

A navvy can break the wheel on his wheelbarrow.

Yes, I am aware that the uncommon conscientious operator, is able to regularly zero the equipment, but he can not confirm the calibration.

I will stick to my piece of string and be confident in my own work.

Post by **jif** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:26 pm

we don't need no friggin lasers!

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Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:13 pm

jif wrote:we don't need no friggin lasers!

[Posted via external email]

Nor lousy losers. Up the stringers.